- comment
Shaun Kenney - body
- Fr. Rooney needs our prayers, as do all of our priests.
What would certainly put things asunder would be to introduce novelties, such as confrontational commentary and female altar servers...
- comment MDHichborn
- body
- Heckman,
Leadership is not waiting for a council to make up its mind through majority vote as to whether HE will allow alter girls in HIS parish or not.
Leadership is taking a public stance as to whether HE wishes to give into liberal demands for alter girls or not and telling the council that HE is the head of the parish and HE will make the decision. THAT is leadership.
Jesus said, "Be hot or be cold, but if you are lukewarm, I will spit you from my mouth!" Strong spiritual leaders don't wait for the polls to come in before they make pastoral decisions, and they know very well what is theologically and spiritually sound.
The allowance of alter girls is a move by liberals is mass conditioning towards the allowance of woman priests (which is theologically impossible).
P.S. The Latin Mass is true to theological and magesterial principles ... alter girls are not.
- comment Joe Friday
- body
- I say let the women run the world and I'll stay back at the hive like a drone bee and impregnate the queen and beg for food.
- comment Rick Sincere
- body
- So does this mean that only one diocese in the United States (Lincoln) continues to prohibit female altar servers?
- comment Shaun Kenney
- body
- Yes, though North America and Western Europe are the only parts of the globe that permit it.
The bishops in Africa, Asia, and Eastern Europe do not permit the practice, though in those parts of the world the demand for women's ordination is low to non-existent.
Women's ordination screws everything up. If not for that movement, there probably wouldn't be much of a distinction -- it would be similar to allowing extraordinary ministers for communion. But because altar servers participate closely with the priest during the Mass... a different message is sent (or perceived).
The real question is how to you allow the practice of female altar servers while sending a strong message to the women's ordination crowd that their behavior and demands are antithetical to Catholic teaching?
- comment Shaun Kenney
- body
- The issue Fr. Narmara specifically addresses is where the allowance of female altar servers would be construed as an endorsement of women's ordination, *or* an instance where people have a right to participate in the Mass.
The context you cite I deliberately left out, but for the opposite reasons. In the Diocese of Arlington, the "sensibilities of the faithful" are much more conservative than elsewhere in the United States. In fact, by citing that, you make an argument *against* female altar servers in Arlington -- not in favor. I didn't want to use a coercive argument such as that, hence the reason why I deliberately omitted that paragraph from my commentary.
I do appreciate the fact you read the ZENIT article, and the kind tone we've all taken so far. Remember that 50% of what you read online, you misunderstand the tone!
I'm sure our priests will do what is right, but I fear two things: (1) that any admission of female altar servers plays into the hands of heterodox organizations such as Catholics Speak Out, and (2) that lines will be drawn between parishes that allow and do not allow female altar servers, and parishes will identify themselves as "progressive" or "conservative" according to their customs during the Mass.
Given those considerations, I hope that we do not allow female altar servers in Arlington, much less in the Fredericksburg area (St. Mary, St. Patrick, St. Matthew, St. William of York, St. Jude). As petty as the issue might be, it will only divide the faithful in changes are made.
- comment MDHichborn
- body
- Regardless of what Fr. McNamara said, I would like to take a moment to point out that the 1980 prohibition on female altar servers has never been lifted.
The following is taken from: http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9305fea2.asp
The directive covering the liturgical ministry of women is given in the official liturgical instruction Inaestimabile Donum (no. 18), which says, "There are various roles that women can perform in the liturgical assembly: These include reading the word of God and proclaiming the intentions of the prayer of the faithful. Women are not, however, permitted to act as altar servers."
If that doesn't convince you, perhaps a 1991 letter, signed by Msgr. C. Sepe, the Vatican Secretariat of State, will:
"I am writing in reply to your letter to the Holy Father concerning the possibility of girls acting as altar servers. The Church's traditional discipline in this regard was reaffirmed in the instruction Inaestimabile Donum, issued by the Congregation for the Sacraments and Divine Worship on April 3, 1980, and it remains in force."
- comment Shaun Kenney
- body
- That doesn't explain why the Vatican allows the practice of female altar servers...
- comment MDHichborn
- body
- Has it? I have seen a lot written by "theologians" which seem to allow altar girls, but the only official documents on the matter that I can find speak only in prohibition of the practice.
- comment Shaun Kenney
- body
- There's prohibitions against female acolytes.
There are no prohibitions against female altar servers, except (1) where local custom rejects the practice, and (2) such a move would be interpreted as the introduction of heterodox opinions such as women's ordination, etc.
- comment thenutfantastic
- body
- I'm left wondering how it is "theologically impossible" for a woman to become a priest? Further, I'm wondering why women becoming priests will "never happen?"
Because, if you look at the Episcopal Church, women have been priests for quite a while. And, shocker, we've also elected an openly gay bishop!
And if I do remember correctly, it was women who helped jump start Christianity, prophetizing and all that. Was it not Mary M. who was deemed the 13th apostle, the apostle of the apostles? I do believe she was the true follower, believing in the resurrection then was told to go and tell everyone else - men - who did.not.listen. Surprise I know.
It seems that your support of women and girls being *disallowed* (this isn't a word btw) from leadership/service roles in the church is only injecting sexism into a faith that supposes to love everyone equally.
Can anyone prove to me why women shouldn't be priests, servers or acolytes other than that we have a vagina?
- comment thenutfantastic
- body
- Oh, btw, would you join any organization/religion, etc. that discriminates against you just because you are white and/or have a penis? No? Then don't knock those of us who choose not to be Catholics for the same reason.
- comment Shaun Kenney
- body
- Somehow I get the feeling - even if I offered an explanation to "the nut" - I don't think it would suffice.
Thanks for taking a stab at it Mark! That's good stuff!
- comment thenutfantastic
- body
- "The Church doesn't discriminate against anyone."
Then what do you call not allowing gays/women to be ordained and/or take leadership positions in the church? From my definition of discrimination, this entirely applies.
Because you honor and *love* both Mary's doesn't mean you don't discriminate in the here and now. If women play such an important role in both the Church and society, why not treat them equally, allowing them to accomplish the same things you can?
And dude. Discriminiation is discrimination regardless of who's doing it so the whole "reverse" doesn't apply.
There have been women ordained as Catholic priests. 7 of them in 2001 actually, done via Canada.
Men and women used to serve in monasteries together. In fact, the Abbess exists because she would often oversee both women and men. Then someone decided that, *shock* women are inherently different only because we have a vagina and thought separation was in order.
(And yes, choosing is indeed a word.)
- comment Mike
- body
- Nut,
There is a small, but incredibly relevant passage in the book of Numbers.
In Numbers chapter 16, a man named Core, amongst 250 other prominent Israelites, protested following Moses and his laws anymore. In fact, when Moses rebuked them, he asked:
"Is it a small thing unto you, that the God of Israel hath spared you from all the people, and joined you to Himself, that you should serve Him in the service of the tabernacle, and should stand before the congregation of the people, and should minister to Him?
Did he therefore make thee all thy brethren the sons of Levi to approach unto Him, that you should challenge to yourselves the priesthood also, and that all thy company should stand against the Lord?"
What Moses is saying is that these individuals had decided that they should elevate themselves to the priesthood, which is an afront to God Himself. In essence, they wish to make their own laws (because they no longer wish to follow Moses, whose laws should they follow other than their own?) and worship God in their own manner. Basically, this was the jewish, pre-Christ version of the Protestant Revolt (which is, incidentally, essentially what the current push for women's ordination is as well).
Please let me describe what happened to these people who decided that they no longer wished to follow God's appointed authority, wished to worship in their own manners, and wished to live according to their own moral/spiritual laws:
Numbers 16: 30-33 - (Moses is speaking about possible consequences for Core and his revolters) But if the Lord do a new thing, and the earth opening her mouth swallow them down, and all things that belong to them, and they go down alive into Hell, you shall know that they have blasphemed the Lord.
And immediately as he had made an end of speaking, the earth broke assunder under their feet:
And opening her mouth, devoured them with their tents and all their substance.
And they went down alive into Hell, the ground closing upon them, and they perished from among the people."
When you read further, God sent a plague to destroy any who persisted in the revolt, killing 14,700 people.
When one examines this small, but incredibly significant incident, one must wonder why people persist in questioning the authority God places on this earth. When Jesus gave the Keys to Heaven to Peter, and founded His church upon him, granting him the authority to bind and loose sin and law both in Heaven and on earth, and that authority was passed from Peter to Linus, and then from Linus to Cletus, and so forth.
It has been stated rather firmly that women, who hold a prominent place in the Church, can no more change bread and wine to the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ and a man can give birth to a baby.
Furthermore, it has been stated rather clearly both in Catholic Doctrine and in Scripture that homosexuality is an abominable sin which "cries to Heaven for vengeance"!
Now, as to your aversion to the word "discriminate", I shall say this rather plainly ... when I look at applicants to my school for potential teachers, I have to discriminate against all those who could be a potential threat to the integrity of the school, its mission, the students, and the faculty. If a man, who is either anti-Catholic (I am in charge of a school offering a Catholic education), a pedophile, a homosexual , a murderer, or in some other way incompatible with the mission, teachings, and culture of the school, then there is no way that I will hire this individual. The same is true in regards to the priesthood.
I'll address the theological reasons why women can't be priests in another post ... this one is long enough. :)
- comment Mike
- body
- Galway,
Rather than attacking Shaun, why not address the matter as regards the Church itself?
Please read the following article, and see for yourself what the Church teaches, infallibly, about female ordination.
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0201sbs.asp
- comment Mike
- body
- As for women's ordination not being addressed in the New Testament ...
For one thing, nowhere did Christ ever commission women to teach in His name and with His authority.
In fact, St. Paul explicitly forbids women to attempt to perform such functions.
1 Timothy 2:11-12
"Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness.
I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent."
Thus saith St. Paul. Not even the Pope has the authority to overturn such a decree. If it was possible for a woman to be ordained as a priest, then she would receive all the faculties of a priest, and one such faculty is granting absolution for sins (the sacrament of pennance). In order for a woman to be able to perform such a function, she would have to have authority over the one being absolved, which according to St. Paul is not possible.
Furthermore, 1 Corinthians 14:34:
"the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says."
People who advocate the ordination of women in the Church seem to believe that they know more about Christianity than St. Paul.
- comment Shaun Kenney
- body
- Mike and Mark have struck the point home.
Proponents of women's ordination will throw up all sorts of invective. Rarely do you find the proponent willing to debate the subject in terms of theology or salvation history.
Good stuff gentlemen.
- comment P2B12
- body
- I'm a female and hope girls are NOT admitted...
The way I look at it is, if it was good enough for Jesus it's good enough for me.
There are plenty of places for me to serve - the altar is not one of them. I even refused a request to become an EEM (and volunteered my husband).
We like the Latin and would like to see more of it.
We continue to pray for our priests.
19 Comments:
What would certainly put things asunder would be to introduce novelties, such as confrontational commentary and female altar servers...
Leadership is not waiting for a council to make up its mind through majority vote as to whether HE will allow alter girls in HIS parish or not.
Leadership is taking a public stance as to whether HE wishes to give into liberal demands for alter girls or not and telling the council that HE is the head of the parish and HE will make the decision. THAT is leadership.
Jesus said, "Be hot or be cold, but if you are lukewarm, I will spit you from my mouth!" Strong spiritual leaders don't wait for the polls to come in before they make pastoral decisions, and they know very well what is theologically and spiritually sound.
The allowance of alter girls is a move by liberals is mass conditioning towards the allowance of woman priests (which is theologically impossible).
P.S. The Latin Mass is true to theological and magesterial principles ... alter girls are not.
The bishops in Africa, Asia, and Eastern Europe do not permit the practice, though in those parts of the world the demand for women's ordination is low to non-existent.
Women's ordination screws everything up. If not for that movement, there probably wouldn't be much of a distinction -- it would be similar to allowing extraordinary ministers for communion. But because altar servers participate closely with the priest during the Mass... a different message is sent (or perceived).
The real question is how to you allow the practice of female altar servers while sending a strong message to the women's ordination crowd that their behavior and demands are antithetical to Catholic teaching?
The context you cite I deliberately left out, but for the opposite reasons. In the Diocese of Arlington, the "sensibilities of the faithful" are much more conservative than elsewhere in the United States. In fact, by citing that, you make an argument *against* female altar servers in Arlington -- not in favor. I didn't want to use a coercive argument such as that, hence the reason why I deliberately omitted that paragraph from my commentary.
I do appreciate the fact you read the ZENIT article, and the kind tone we've all taken so far. Remember that 50% of what you read online, you misunderstand the tone!
I'm sure our priests will do what is right, but I fear two things: (1) that any admission of female altar servers plays into the hands of heterodox organizations such as Catholics Speak Out, and (2) that lines will be drawn between parishes that allow and do not allow female altar servers, and parishes will identify themselves as "progressive" or "conservative" according to their customs during the Mass.
Given those considerations, I hope that we do not allow female altar servers in Arlington, much less in the Fredericksburg area (St. Mary, St. Patrick, St. Matthew, St. William of York, St. Jude). As petty as the issue might be, it will only divide the faithful in changes are made.
The following is taken from: http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9305fea2.asp
The directive covering the liturgical ministry of women is given in the official liturgical instruction Inaestimabile Donum (no. 18), which says, "There are various roles that women can perform in the liturgical assembly: These include reading the word of God and proclaiming the intentions of the prayer of the faithful. Women are not, however, permitted to act as altar servers."
If that doesn't convince you, perhaps a 1991 letter, signed by Msgr. C. Sepe, the Vatican Secretariat of State, will:
"I am writing in reply to your letter to the Holy Father concerning the possibility of girls acting as altar servers. The Church's traditional discipline in this regard was reaffirmed in the instruction Inaestimabile Donum, issued by the Congregation for the Sacraments and Divine Worship on April 3, 1980, and it remains in force."
There are no prohibitions against female altar servers, except (1) where local custom rejects the practice, and (2) such a move would be interpreted as the introduction of heterodox opinions such as women's ordination, etc.
Because, if you look at the Episcopal Church, women have been priests for quite a while. And, shocker, we've also elected an openly gay bishop!
And if I do remember correctly, it was women who helped jump start Christianity, prophetizing and all that. Was it not Mary M. who was deemed the 13th apostle, the apostle of the apostles? I do believe she was the true follower, believing in the resurrection then was told to go and tell everyone else - men - who did.not.listen. Surprise I know.
It seems that your support of women and girls being *disallowed* (this isn't a word btw) from leadership/service roles in the church is only injecting sexism into a faith that supposes to love everyone equally.
Can anyone prove to me why women shouldn't be priests, servers or acolytes other than that we have a vagina?
Thanks for taking a stab at it Mark! That's good stuff!
Then what do you call not allowing gays/women to be ordained and/or take leadership positions in the church? From my definition of discrimination, this entirely applies.
Because you honor and *love* both Mary's doesn't mean you don't discriminate in the here and now. If women play such an important role in both the Church and society, why not treat them equally, allowing them to accomplish the same things you can?
And dude. Discriminiation is discrimination regardless of who's doing it so the whole "reverse" doesn't apply.
There have been women ordained as Catholic priests. 7 of them in 2001 actually, done via Canada.
Men and women used to serve in monasteries together. In fact, the Abbess exists because she would often oversee both women and men. Then someone decided that, *shock* women are inherently different only because we have a vagina and thought separation was in order.
(And yes, choosing is indeed a word.)
There is a small, but incredibly relevant passage in the book of Numbers.
In Numbers chapter 16, a man named Core, amongst 250 other prominent Israelites, protested following Moses and his laws anymore. In fact, when Moses rebuked them, he asked:
"Is it a small thing unto you, that the God of Israel hath spared you from all the people, and joined you to Himself, that you should serve Him in the service of the tabernacle, and should stand before the congregation of the people, and should minister to Him?
Did he therefore make thee all thy brethren the sons of Levi to approach unto Him, that you should challenge to yourselves the priesthood also, and that all thy company should stand against the Lord?"
What Moses is saying is that these individuals had decided that they should elevate themselves to the priesthood, which is an afront to God Himself. In essence, they wish to make their own laws (because they no longer wish to follow Moses, whose laws should they follow other than their own?) and worship God in their own manner. Basically, this was the jewish, pre-Christ version of the Protestant Revolt (which is, incidentally, essentially what the current push for women's ordination is as well).
Please let me describe what happened to these people who decided that they no longer wished to follow God's appointed authority, wished to worship in their own manners, and wished to live according to their own moral/spiritual laws:
Numbers 16: 30-33 - (Moses is speaking about possible consequences for Core and his revolters) But if the Lord do a new thing, and the earth opening her mouth swallow them down, and all things that belong to them, and they go down alive into Hell, you shall know that they have blasphemed the Lord.
And immediately as he had made an end of speaking, the earth broke assunder under their feet:
And opening her mouth, devoured them with their tents and all their substance.
And they went down alive into Hell, the ground closing upon them, and they perished from among the people."
When you read further, God sent a plague to destroy any who persisted in the revolt, killing 14,700 people.
When one examines this small, but incredibly significant incident, one must wonder why people persist in questioning the authority God places on this earth. When Jesus gave the Keys to Heaven to Peter, and founded His church upon him, granting him the authority to bind and loose sin and law both in Heaven and on earth, and that authority was passed from Peter to Linus, and then from Linus to Cletus, and so forth.
It has been stated rather firmly that women, who hold a prominent place in the Church, can no more change bread and wine to the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ and a man can give birth to a baby.
Furthermore, it has been stated rather clearly both in Catholic Doctrine and in Scripture that homosexuality is an abominable sin which "cries to Heaven for vengeance"!
Now, as to your aversion to the word "discriminate", I shall say this rather plainly ... when I look at applicants to my school for potential teachers, I have to discriminate against all those who could be a potential threat to the integrity of the school, its mission, the students, and the faculty. If a man, who is either anti-Catholic (I am in charge of a school offering a Catholic education), a pedophile, a homosexual , a murderer, or in some other way incompatible with the mission, teachings, and culture of the school, then there is no way that I will hire this individual. The same is true in regards to the priesthood.
I'll address the theological reasons why women can't be priests in another post ... this one is long enough. :)
Rather than attacking Shaun, why not address the matter as regards the Church itself?
Please read the following article, and see for yourself what the Church teaches, infallibly, about female ordination.
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0201sbs.asp
For one thing, nowhere did Christ ever commission women to teach in His name and with His authority.
In fact, St. Paul explicitly forbids women to attempt to perform such functions.
1 Timothy 2:11-12
"Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness.
I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent."
Thus saith St. Paul. Not even the Pope has the authority to overturn such a decree. If it was possible for a woman to be ordained as a priest, then she would receive all the faculties of a priest, and one such faculty is granting absolution for sins (the sacrament of pennance). In order for a woman to be able to perform such a function, she would have to have authority over the one being absolved, which according to St. Paul is not possible.
Furthermore, 1 Corinthians 14:34:
"the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says."
People who advocate the ordination of women in the Church seem to believe that they know more about Christianity than St. Paul.
Proponents of women's ordination will throw up all sorts of invective. Rarely do you find the proponent willing to debate the subject in terms of theology or salvation history.
Good stuff gentlemen.
The way I look at it is, if it was good enough for Jesus it's good enough for me.
There are plenty of places for me to serve - the altar is not one of them. I even refused a request to become an EEM (and volunteered my husband).
We like the Latin and would like to see more of it.
We continue to pray for our priests.
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