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Robert - body
- Actually, I was looking at voter turnout from last year's primaries and they weren't much higher than this year's. Off-year primary elections don't tend to draw very many voters to the polls from either party.
- comment Robert
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- Actually, I was looking at voter turnout from last year's primaries and they weren't much higher than this year's. Off-year primary elections don't tend to draw very many voters to the polls from either party.
- comment Jason Kenney
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- Not just the Marriage Amendment but issues in general. Webb can prove to be as "progressive" as he wants, but why would Republican's suddenly support a Republican light in Webb over a proven Republican in Allen? And what's to inspire the Dems to come out? A lukewarm candidate that's going to vote against their ideals 80% of the time?
Miller was the better candidate.
- comment Shaun Kenney
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- Yep, but look at what we get to do now:
(1) Allen gets to stomp an anti-war John Kerry-style Republican turned Democrat
(2) Allen gets to shore up his conservative (Jeffersonian that is) credentials.
(3) Webb is a national name, and Allen beating him will be a national springboard into 2008.
(4) Webb has the worst campaign ever, and the DSCC won't give him enough to beat Allen, much less compete.
(5) This is George Allen folks -- there is no better candidate we could field in Virginia for anything. Against Webb? C'mon...
(6) And here's the best part: Webb has angered so many minority voters that Allen has a real chance of bringing the conservative message of entrepreneurship, low taxes, and free enterprise to people who otherwise may not care. We have a real shot to build a coalition folks -- breathe some new life into the conservative movement by incorporating the best ideas of the African-Americans and Hispanic communities.
I can't wait. Webb is going to be mauled by the Allen machine, and it's *not* going to be pretty.
Warm up the diesel -- Here comes the A-Team!
- comment Dvt guy
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- I don't want to say much - just that you guys have a very low understanding of how the Democratic party works.
If you think base turnout will be a problem against GEORGE ALLEN in this electoral climate...then I don't know what to say.
I just hope more people take Webb lightly.
- comment Shaun Kenney
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- ... and if you think for a moment that the GOP is going to take this election lightly, you have no idea how the Republican Party of Virginia works.
Republicans of all stripes are going to send Allen off in style.
You'll remember this on November 8th when Webb loses 60-40% and you're wondering what the heck happened to your momentum you had in June... the Virginia Republican Party is going to mobilize off of this election in a way you would not believe.
Get ready! The A-Team's comin'!
- comment Ben Kyber
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- VC is right. The entire Democratic base will be out in force come November. People know that this is a crucial year and that if we play our cards right, it could potentially be our 1994.
Second, if you think Allen is so strong, look at the few polls released in April and May that had him leading Jim Webb (who may as well be "unnamed Democrat" to many voters) by only about 7 points in a hypothetical matchup.
Allen is MUCH weaker than you guys want to believe.
But keep going with the overconfidence. Allen can stay in Iowa for 5 months and watch his Senate seat slip away. It would certainly be better for Virginia if that happened. Allen has accomplished nothing as a Senator besides going on Meet the Press and touting President "Mr. Popularity" Bush's ideas. Find me meaningful, groundbreaking legislation Allen has patroned that benefits his constituents. There ain't much of it.
- comment Shaun Kenney
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- Last poll I saw showed a 15 point lead regardless of whether it was Miller or Webb.
But who am I to share poll numbers?
Keep dreaming folks -- Allen is invincible in Virginia. I think you guys seriously underestimate (misunderestimate?) how much Virginia Republicans are universally willing to work and work hard for George Allen.
- comment Jason Kenney
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- Dems think they know the way Virginia Republicans think based off of Kilgore's numbers last year. Let them keep thinking that. It'll make Allen's margin of victory that much wider.
- comment GOPHokie
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- Sorry to get in the middle of the lovefest guys, but I am not super excited.
I do not think for a minute the dems will have any problem circling the wagons with Webb.
As for us, the best thing that could happen is a poll to come out now that showed the race close.
Too many people are more worried about voting for George Allen in 2008, not 2006.
"you have no idea how the Republican Party of Virginia works"
Neither does anyone else.
- comment Shaun Kenney
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- Ah, don't be so down on RPV.
You'll see plenty of people turn out to volunteer for Allen, most importantly because we all know he has presidential aspirations.
Heck, most of the GOP Women's Units will work harder for Susan than they will for George (and you know that's true, too)!
- comment Dvt guy
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- First of all, let me agree STRONGLY with you that Allen historically united both the moderate and right-wing factions of the GOP.
Secondly, while Ben points out that Allen isn't UBER-POPULAR (approval rating between 48% and 55%) - about 40% of his approval is STRONG approval. Republicans love George Allen. That doesn't give Democrats much wiggle room. And that's why it was important that we nominated a wedge candidate who could weaken Allen's support amongst moderates.
Finally - Shaun, your 60% prediction is frankly a bad sign for the party. If others are thinking like you, then you're in trouble.
We're talking about a landmark election where the GOP base is depressed and the Dems smell blood.
We're talking about a celebrity candidate who has proven that he can draw tons of free media.
And we're talking about a candidate who is basically a Bush clone in a state where Bush polls at 35%.
And you're telling me that George Allen will win over 15% of Kaine's voters??? Against an avowed moderate who has the right positions (for 2006) on the war and the new economy?
It's hard to believe. Webb could just put his name on the ballot, and he'd get 43%...if not more...
I think Webb will hit a really hard ceiling at about 51%, and it's going to be tough to get there. But this will be a race...
PS: John Warner is the best candidate the GOP can put up statewide, not George Allen.
- comment Dvt guy
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- "to support an iffy and questionable Dem who ran such a sleazy primary campaign."
What in the hell are you talking about?!?!?!
Webb didn't even have enough money to do what you're accusing him of...
Please tell me you're just some Republican troll...
- comment Charles
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- I'm guessing by November most of the anger by the local democrat faithful who were trashed by out-of-state democrat leftist activists and their willing accomplices in the virginia blogospher will be healed over.
But it's not a figment of the imagination, as can be seen by Beyer pulling the fundraiser for DSCC for their "support" of Webb in the primary.
But the democrat base can't elect a candidate in this state. They aren't the majority.
The republican base will certainly support Allen. And those who don't care about party won't vote for Webb to "stick it to the republican party".
I'm guessing 55-45, Allen, unless Webb is still as bad at this in October as he is today.
Webb isn't as good a candidate as Tim Kaine was (Are there ANY willing to argue THAT point?)
Allen is a MUCH better candidate than Kilgore was (Anybody want to argue THAT point)?
And given the multiple flaps about anti-semitism and other slurs which were (fairly or unfairly) attached to the Webb campaign, it seems the WEBB side is much more likely to end up with troubles like the "Hitler" ad of 2005 than Allen's side.
And republicans have the secret weapon of MoveOn, who is angering the military and military-supporting civilian families in the 2nd district by attacking companies that employ thousands of voters there while providing weapons and support to our troops. They can't be controlled, and they are very capable of running a "hitler" ad.
I mean, they are attacking Drake for taking some money from Halliburton when her Democrat opponent has major stock holdings in the company.
I'm going to like this race much more than I would have liked a Miller-Allen race.
- comment Shaun Kenney
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- Webb didn't even have enough money to do what you're accusing him of...
Webb didn't, but his blogger friends certainly had plenty of spare time.
What's that proverb about idle hands???
- comment Shaun Kenney
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- You know Isis, you bring up a great point, one I've been meaning to talk about for a long time.
Robert Kennedy ran for president in 1968 on liberal values, his brother's progress and legacy, when Democrats were more about true liberalism rather than socialism at all costs.
He was speaking at a rally somewhere, and he spoke vividly of liberal values, of liberal ideals, of what it meant to be a liberal and why we should be proud to uphold liberalism in the face of opposition...
That's a leader and a party I can respect!
What do we get today? Liberal today doesn't mean what it meant 40 years ago. Would RFK or JFK look at the Democratic Party and be proud, or would the look at it and go "oh my God, what the hell happened?"
Liberalism used to mean something idealistic. Now it's been butchered and vivisected into some mealymouth "progressive" label bent on stereotyping into "them" and "us" -- the exact opposite of what Kennedy and MLK Jr. envisioned.
Liberalism used to be in the tradition of Disraeli and Jefferson. Liberalism by definition meant freedom, but not license and certainly not a government telling people what was and what was not moral.
Has anyone here seen my old friend John? Can you tell me where he's gone?
- comment Dvt guy
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- Shaun, again you advocate a suicidal strategy! I too would admire a Republican party that ran proud right-wing social conservatives. I would admire them all the way to the polls while I laughed and choked on my drink.
Isis:
You are not a Democrat. You have no business even speaking to a great guy like Al Eisenberg, let alone claiming to be a democrat.
Anyone who even contemplates voting for the Green party is not a Democrat. All 1.1% of you...
- comment Shaun Kenney
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- Moderation for the sake of being moderate is not a winning strategy at all.
Gotta stand for something. That's why Dems running to the middle screaming are so fun to watch. They quit their principles, and voters punished them accordingly.
Now, bankrupt and adrift, they look for something else to hang their hat on, desperate for any victory whatsoever.
And that's how Republicans like Webb win Democratic nominations for U.S. Senate.
- comment Shaun Kenney
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- Mark's right...
- comment Dvt guy
- body
- Shaun, I thought we agreed a while back that the debate in Virginia is between the Center and the Right.
If we run a liberal candidate, then we're a bit out of place.
I know you hate the idea of moderate candidates, but this is a conservative state. In that sense, Webb fits in on the left side of the debate, while Allen fits nicely on the right side.
- comment P2B12
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- As a strong Republican I voted in the Democratic primary since they let anyone vote :) Hope it helped screwed up their numbers :)
21 Comments:
Miller was the better candidate.
(1) Allen gets to stomp an anti-war John Kerry-style Republican turned Democrat
(2) Allen gets to shore up his conservative (Jeffersonian that is) credentials.
(3) Webb is a national name, and Allen beating him will be a national springboard into 2008.
(4) Webb has the worst campaign ever, and the DSCC won't give him enough to beat Allen, much less compete.
(5) This is George Allen folks -- there is no better candidate we could field in Virginia for anything. Against Webb? C'mon...
(6) And here's the best part: Webb has angered so many minority voters that Allen has a real chance of bringing the conservative message of entrepreneurship, low taxes, and free enterprise to people who otherwise may not care. We have a real shot to build a coalition folks -- breathe some new life into the conservative movement by incorporating the best ideas of the African-Americans and Hispanic communities.
I can't wait. Webb is going to be mauled by the Allen machine, and it's *not* going to be pretty.
Warm up the diesel -- Here comes the A-Team!
If you think base turnout will be a problem against GEORGE ALLEN in this electoral climate...then I don't know what to say.
I just hope more people take Webb lightly.
Republicans of all stripes are going to send Allen off in style.
You'll remember this on November 8th when Webb loses 60-40% and you're wondering what the heck happened to your momentum you had in June... the Virginia Republican Party is going to mobilize off of this election in a way you would not believe.
Get ready! The A-Team's comin'!
Second, if you think Allen is so strong, look at the few polls released in April and May that had him leading Jim Webb (who may as well be "unnamed Democrat" to many voters) by only about 7 points in a hypothetical matchup.
Allen is MUCH weaker than you guys want to believe.
But keep going with the overconfidence. Allen can stay in Iowa for 5 months and watch his Senate seat slip away. It would certainly be better for Virginia if that happened. Allen has accomplished nothing as a Senator besides going on Meet the Press and touting President "Mr. Popularity" Bush's ideas. Find me meaningful, groundbreaking legislation Allen has patroned that benefits his constituents. There ain't much of it.
But who am I to share poll numbers?
Keep dreaming folks -- Allen is invincible in Virginia. I think you guys seriously underestimate (misunderestimate?) how much Virginia Republicans are universally willing to work and work hard for George Allen.
I do not think for a minute the dems will have any problem circling the wagons with Webb.
As for us, the best thing that could happen is a poll to come out now that showed the race close.
Too many people are more worried about voting for George Allen in 2008, not 2006.
"you have no idea how the Republican Party of Virginia works"
Neither does anyone else.
You'll see plenty of people turn out to volunteer for Allen, most importantly because we all know he has presidential aspirations.
Heck, most of the GOP Women's Units will work harder for Susan than they will for George (and you know that's true, too)!
Secondly, while Ben points out that Allen isn't UBER-POPULAR (approval rating between 48% and 55%) - about 40% of his approval is STRONG approval. Republicans love George Allen. That doesn't give Democrats much wiggle room. And that's why it was important that we nominated a wedge candidate who could weaken Allen's support amongst moderates.
Finally - Shaun, your 60% prediction is frankly a bad sign for the party. If others are thinking like you, then you're in trouble.
We're talking about a landmark election where the GOP base is depressed and the Dems smell blood.
We're talking about a celebrity candidate who has proven that he can draw tons of free media.
And we're talking about a candidate who is basically a Bush clone in a state where Bush polls at 35%.
And you're telling me that George Allen will win over 15% of Kaine's voters??? Against an avowed moderate who has the right positions (for 2006) on the war and the new economy?
It's hard to believe. Webb could just put his name on the ballot, and he'd get 43%...if not more...
I think Webb will hit a really hard ceiling at about 51%, and it's going to be tough to get there. But this will be a race...
PS: John Warner is the best candidate the GOP can put up statewide, not George Allen.
What in the hell are you talking about?!?!?!
Webb didn't even have enough money to do what you're accusing him of...
Please tell me you're just some Republican troll...
But it's not a figment of the imagination, as can be seen by Beyer pulling the fundraiser for DSCC for their "support" of Webb in the primary.
But the democrat base can't elect a candidate in this state. They aren't the majority.
The republican base will certainly support Allen. And those who don't care about party won't vote for Webb to "stick it to the republican party".
I'm guessing 55-45, Allen, unless Webb is still as bad at this in October as he is today.
Webb isn't as good a candidate as Tim Kaine was (Are there ANY willing to argue THAT point?)
Allen is a MUCH better candidate than Kilgore was (Anybody want to argue THAT point)?
And given the multiple flaps about anti-semitism and other slurs which were (fairly or unfairly) attached to the Webb campaign, it seems the WEBB side is much more likely to end up with troubles like the "Hitler" ad of 2005 than Allen's side.
And republicans have the secret weapon of MoveOn, who is angering the military and military-supporting civilian families in the 2nd district by attacking companies that employ thousands of voters there while providing weapons and support to our troops. They can't be controlled, and they are very capable of running a "hitler" ad.
I mean, they are attacking Drake for taking some money from Halliburton when her Democrat opponent has major stock holdings in the company.
I'm going to like this race much more than I would have liked a Miller-Allen race.
Webb didn't, but his blogger friends certainly had plenty of spare time.
What's that proverb about idle hands???
Robert Kennedy ran for president in 1968 on liberal values, his brother's progress and legacy, when Democrats were more about true liberalism rather than socialism at all costs.
He was speaking at a rally somewhere, and he spoke vividly of liberal values, of liberal ideals, of what it meant to be a liberal and why we should be proud to uphold liberalism in the face of opposition...
That's a leader and a party I can respect!
What do we get today? Liberal today doesn't mean what it meant 40 years ago. Would RFK or JFK look at the Democratic Party and be proud, or would the look at it and go "oh my God, what the hell happened?"
Liberalism used to mean something idealistic. Now it's been butchered and vivisected into some mealymouth "progressive" label bent on stereotyping into "them" and "us" -- the exact opposite of what Kennedy and MLK Jr. envisioned.
Liberalism used to be in the tradition of Disraeli and Jefferson. Liberalism by definition meant freedom, but not license and certainly not a government telling people what was and what was not moral.
Has anyone here seen my old friend John? Can you tell me where he's gone?
Isis:
You are not a Democrat. You have no business even speaking to a great guy like Al Eisenberg, let alone claiming to be a democrat.
Anyone who even contemplates voting for the Green party is not a Democrat. All 1.1% of you...
Gotta stand for something. That's why Dems running to the middle screaming are so fun to watch. They quit their principles, and voters punished them accordingly.
Now, bankrupt and adrift, they look for something else to hang their hat on, desperate for any victory whatsoever.
And that's how Republicans like Webb win Democratic nominations for U.S. Senate.
If we run a liberal candidate, then we're a bit out of place.
I know you hate the idea of moderate candidates, but this is a conservative state. In that sense, Webb fits in on the left side of the debate, while Allen fits nicely on the right side.
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